Subject: Re: train times on 7/7/05
Dear Bridget
Let me also apologise for the delay in responding to your query on the times of the trains that left King's Cross station on the morning of 7th July 2005.
I have been in touch with the British Transport Police and have managed to obtain the following information:
- the Eastbound Circle line train (204) left King's Cross at 08:35.
- the Westbound Circle line train (216) left King's Cross at 08:42
- the Piccadilly Line train south left King's Cross at 08:48
I trust the above is of use to you.
Vicky
Vicky Hutchinson
Transport Security Directorate
Department for Transport
Zone 5/8 Southside
105 Victoria Street
London
SW1E 6DT
Tel: 020 7944 2783
Fax: 020 7944 2174
Now I just need to find out the times of the Luton Thameslink trains to see if these times were possible on that morning given that we know that the 7.40 train that morning was cancelled, despite this being given as the official time these young men boarded the train to Kings X.
See the following table:
| Official Timetable | Actual 7 July Timetable | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Depart Luton | Arrive Kings Cross | Platform | Departure Time | Arrive Kings Cross |
| 7.04 | 7.40 | 1 or 3 | 7.04 (On Time) | 7.40 (on time) |
| 7.08 | 7.56 | 1 or 3 | 7.08 (On Time) | 8.26 (30 mins late) |
| 7.16 | 7.48 | 1 or 3 | 7.21 (5 minutes late) | 8.19 (31 mins late) |
| 7.20 | 8.08 | 1 or 3 | 7.20 (On Time) | 8.15 (7 mins late) |
| 7.24 | 8.00 | 1 or 3 | 7.25 | 8.23 (23 mins late) |
| 7.30 | 8.04 | 4 | 7.42 (12 minutes late) | 8.39 (35 mins late) |
| 7.40 | 8.16 | N/A | Cancelled | Cancelled |
| 7.46 | 8.28 | N/A | Cancelled | Cancelled |
| 7.48 | 8.20 | 3 | 7.56 (8 mins late) | 8.42 (22 mins late) |
| 7.56 | 8.32 | N/A | Cancelled | Cancelled |
As the letter from the Department of Transport and the table show, the 7.40am train did not run from Luton to Kings Cross on the morning of 7 July. News sources say the alleged bombers boarded the 7.40 that morning, or the 7.48. The 7.48am train left Luton 8 minutes late and arrived at Kings Cross at 8.42 - a total of 22 minutes later than the scheduled arrival time of 8.20. By 8.42am that morning two of the trains had already left Kings Cross.
References:
"They boarded the 7.48am to London carrying return tickets."Source: Independent
"The four bombers had travelled together on the 7.40am train from Luton to King's Cross before going their different ways."Source: Telegraph
"Hasib Hussain, an 18-year-old from Leeds, is shown in a CCTV image mounting the stairs at Luton station before taking the 7.40am train to King's Cross."
I have now contacted the Metropolitan Police to try and confirm what time the train left Luton Thameslink.
8 comments:
You make a lot of references in this post to the 7:40 train departing Luton which was cancelled.
Why is this ?
Apart from the fact you apparently already know it was cancelled you have a timetable there of the actual departure times from Luton station.
The only evidence introduced to date regarding these men's travel from Luton is a CCTV still which shows their arrival time at 7:21.
Your timetable of actual departure times from Luton Station reveals that had these men caught the next train to Kings Cross which left at 7:25am they would have arrived at Kings Cross at 8:23am in time to catch all the respective trains at 8:35, 8:42 and 8:48.
So unless there is some reason to believe these men passed up a chance at catching several trains to Kings Cross in favour of waiting for a cancelled train (which you would assume the station would have announced was cancelled) all these references to the 7:40 train appear to be nothing more than a distraction from the fact you have solved the mystery of train departure times in the London bombings.
Given the time you have spent on this you should no doubt check the travel times on the Kings Cross to detonation points for posterity, however that seems to be about all that is left to check.
Thanks Anonymous
I think you have proved the point of this blog, which is, why on earth do you or any other member of the public, (which I presume you are), have to guess what train these men could have travelled on from Luton on 7/7 (If indeed they did).
Every news source, including the Horizon programme on BBC2, which showed a forensic psychologist following the journey, have stated the 7.48 or the 7.40 train on that day.
Why won't the Metropolitan Police state exactly which train they are alleged to have travelled on?
November 02, 2005 12:26 AM
I cannot tell you why the police and media continue to reference those trains. However, I asked you why you were doing the same thing which you can answer.
And what is "if they did" supposed to mean? There are no lies or inaccuracies anywhere to be found from police sources which compare to someone suggesting that these men did not bomb London just as they planned, rehearsed and stated they would.
Bridget
This might interest you. I have posted it on team8+:
Was the Piccadilly Line train number 311?
Prole obtained the following from British Transport Police via the Home Office and DoT:
- the Eastbound Circle line train (204) left King's Cross at 08:35.
- the Westbound Circle line train (216) left King's Cross at 08:42
- the Piccadilly Line train south left King's Cross at 08:48
http://bridgetdunnes.blogspot.com/
Note the train number is not given for the Piccadilly Line.
The Tube Prune, however, notes:
Update on 7/7 Attack for 10/7/05:
An update of the train identification is that the westbound Piccadilly Line train was actually 331 (not 311) running about 20 minutes late due to an earlier problem at Caledonian Road.
http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/
Prole, is it worth taking this up with Vicky at the DoT?
It could, of course, be just a typo.
The BBC says train 331:
TrackerNet is not yet live on the central section of the Piccadilly line. However, we can also confirm for Piccadilly line train 331 that the explosion occurred simultaneously at 08:50:00. Our evidence is based upon the precise time the Tunnel Telephone system went out of service.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2005/07/12/bomb_timeline_feature.shtml
This is on 12/7. Tfl, on 9/7, say:
Explosions were as follows (in succession):
* Circle line train number 204 heading eastbound from Liverpool Street station to Aldgate station.
* Circle line train number 216 travelling westbound heading from Edgware Road station to Paddington station.
* Piccadilly line train number 311 travelling from King's Cross St Pancras to Russell Square southbound.
I think I will asl TfL about this.
I am impressed by your work.
Bridget
I have received a reply from TfL Customer Services.
Our ref: 1035453
19/Nov/2005
Dear Mr Powersurge77
Thank you for your email dated 5 November.
I can confirm that the Piccadilly train involved on 7 July was the westbound
train no 331. The initial reports that we received immediately at the time
were incorrect and we updated our records accordingly as soon as we were
advised.
Thank you for taking the time to contact us. Please let me know if you have
any further queries or if you need any help in the future.
Yours sincerely
Fola Olafare
Customer Service Centre
The question I asked was: is this a typo? They are saying it was not a typo. "... initial reports were incorrect and we updated our records accordingly as soon as we were advised."
The reason that mentioning that the 7:40 was cancelled is that the Home Office official report into 7/7 clearly states that the bombers caught the 7:40 train from Luton to Kings X, and even refers to witnesses who saw them on that train.
Like your work Bridget.
This was great to rread
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